Graham. Frey is the CEO of Hallcraft School Studio - a Learn venture. Hallcraft is committed to building high-quality non-standard schools that reimagine what education could be. For the past six years, Graham was CEO of Alpha, an innovative network of K-12 schools based in Austin, Texas. Alpha has three promises: students will love school, learn faster and acquire life skills. And they make good on all 3. Join us as we discuss Graham’s work, his vision for the school of the 21st century, and why launching a school is a lot like launching a startup.
Graham on what it mean to be an entrepreneur in education:
I've always been interested in going back to your personal question, what is happening in the four walls of this place where I am dropping off my children? In other words, you know, you have this moment where you look around and go, Man, this could just be better, right? What kids are going through every single day, the experience that staff has, how do we how do we get to the point where we are more comfortable with failure? I like to say that the great schools are places that make kids feel uncomfortable, in a place where they're known and loved, that we have to have a really high threshold for what I call well executed failure that, you know, if we think about the history of schools, these are places where we went to learn, and if we're going to go learn, that means that we're admitting really quickly that we don't know everything, right? it should be a learning organization. And unfortunately, I think a lot of schools that fall into this place where they have that, you know, sort of all figured out. And that's simply not true. It's simply this process where we have to go make sure that schools are committed to change and iteration.
Graham on how traditional VC approaches to education don't work:
It's a longer horizon. I think you have to be cognizant that that your customer acquisition is simply slower. If we think about the big economic indicators for a school - obviously the cost to educate, your average income per student, and then your cost to acquire. That's often what we look at from the standpoint of do we have a going concern here? So when you think about structuring a school, from a financial perspective, from a business perspective, I think it's very possible to make a venture backed program work, realizing the horizon is probably a little bit longer. But that's one of my beliefs in the platform concept - that you can actually share resources between different types of schools. And that will actually give you the advantage of having a lower cost to your structure or backbone, and really be enable leaders to focus on program culture.
Graham on school choice:
School choice is a privilege. You and I have the ability to choose where we want our kids to go, to a certain degree. Obviously, the choice has to exist within within the communities. But for the most part, education is a monopoly. And families simply do not have choice. Even if you think about a charter school, for a family that doesn't have a lot of means they have to figure out how to get to the lottery, they have to even know that the school exists, then they have to figure out how they're going to get their child to that school every day. And so there's some very basic barriers that are really hard to overcome. I'm really interested in seeing how we lower the barrier to entry for those specific families. How do we get introduced more choice? And how do we chip away at the monopolies that exists in those particular communities. You've probably heard me say this analogy before: I know where I can get a great cup of coffee, but I only have one choice for school.
Graham on how schools need to deliver on helping a children flourish:
I think it's the most important job ever. Schools become the platform for kids to go off and live an extraordinary life. That is core to me and my beliefs. That's what great schools put kids in situations to do. It's not about college prep, it's about going off and living an extraordinary full life.
Graham on why the studio model that launches dozens of school models is better than one school alone:
This goes back to choice. I believe that families need more choices. Just because a school was great for my first child doesn't mean that school is going to be great for my second child. And so it makes sense to be able to have schools that are tailored towards the needs specific kids. We know what it's like to build a giant school that serves everybody who crossed the threshold. We've seen that in action, right? And so now, why can't we build lots of schools that are different, that are fundamentally culturally different, that have different aspects of their program, that better serve a smaller population of kids within that particular structure.
If you have school aged children, you know the drill, you drop them off at school in the morning, and then you hope you hope they're learning in a way that's unique to them. You hope they're being prepared for the economy of the future, you hope they're receiving the necessary resources they need to thrive, you hope they may even be flourishing. But as we all know, hope isn't a strategy. What you need is a school founded and run by those who believe that education is the most important thing in living an extraordinary and a full life. I'm Evan Baer. And this is venture to flourish podcast from learn capital for founders, investors and leaders who are working to build ventures to drive what we call human flourishing.
Our guest today is Graham Frey, the CEO of Hall craft school studio, a partner of learn how craft is committed to building high quality non standard schools that reimagine what education could be. For the past six years, Graham was the CEO of alpha, an innovative network of K 12. schools based in Austin, Texas. Alpha has three promises, students will love school, learn faster, and acquire life skills. And they make good on Well, all of them. Join us as we discuss Graham's work, his vision for the school, the 21st century, and why launching a school is a lot like launching a startup.
Graham, it's great to have you here. Thanks for being on the pod. Obviously, your life's work is around fixing innovating in education. Take us back to little Graham, I don't meet many aspiring young people who say what I want to be when I grow up as a guy that builds schools give us some of the backstory.
Graham Frey 1:39
Yeah, that's that's a pretty interesting place to start. My first formal experience in education was as a second grader in a rural Ohio School. And I was taken out of the main part of the classroom and put into the corner. So imagine 30 kids in a classroom, and then suddenly 29 and in the corner around a kid with a cubicle around him was little
Evan Baehr 2:07
Graham. I'm picturing you like in a hat at this moment.
Graham Frey 2:10
No dunce cap, but I think that the cardboard cubicle would have basically served for the same thing. The idea that the teacher had was that I was not intelligent enough to manage the mainstream curriculum, and I kept on getting to trouble and distracting my classmates. And so therefore, if you put me in the corner and do worksheets, that would be the best purpose for me. And then the plan was for me to have basically an individualized education plan. And that that would be the only way that I might be able to get through high school. Mind you, this isn't second grade. My parents disagreed. They felt like there was something else amiss. And they sent me off to a Montessori school. And eventually I went to a wonderful school back home called the University School. It's all boys school. So it was my first education experience. So I did not like school. I was I was really thought that school was the worst thing you could possibly do to a person.
Evan Baehr 3:05
And you remember that like taking it on? Did you feel like broken or the problem child or you were not going to make it? Did you feel it?
Graham Frey 3:14
I did. That's actually interesting. I really felt like I was a troublemaker, I felt like I was not smart. I felt that I was doomed, you know, that, that there was really no future for me. And, you know, hope that school was the place that just, you know, it's like, it was like taking a mental beating, you know, sort of barrage of of negativity every day. And it wasn't really until middle school, when I had a couple of teachers who really pushed me to not only believe in myself, but also to raise the standards. I was just so accustomed to not doing well, because that was what the expectation I was expected to not do well. And when they pushed me to do more, and then I became it became my own. In other words, when when I really accomplished and I realized the reason I was being successful because of the work I was putting into academics as that school came together for me, and then I really, really began to enjoy it.
Evan Baehr 4:08
There are probably double digit percentage of at least American youth who have some version of that being put in the corner since the detention given worksheets needing extra tutoring. And I have to imagine that our current system today probably, I mean, these are the stories of the kids who end up as the prom child they're told the prom child, a decent chunk end up in juvie, they end up not completing high school. So your break why you were not sort of on the path of God in a very different grim future was what you mentioned as teachers, what was your sort of breakthrough to not go down that path?
Graham Frey 4:42
You know, it was twofold. It was you know, it was a group of teachers and coaches who really believed in me and spent the time to connect with me right you know, I There are a number of us who can reflect upon one or two great teachers that changed our Our lives. Tony Wagner talks about this at length. That's really what we remember from school. So I had that component. I also had a wonderful person with my stepfather, who was super tough, but expected everything for me and expected and with that expectation came the understanding that I could actually deliver, the expectation wouldn't have existed if he didn't think that actually could do it. And so that became that change. You know, I think there's also going to a school that prides itself in excellence, right, that prides itself in really doing good work across, you know, across a broad spectrum. So it's not only academics, it's character. It's athletics, it's music, it's art. And so I think that was a big part of it, as well. So I've benefited from both,
Evan Baehr 5:49
we'll come back to more of your childhood story and how that shaped you. But let's get into it. What was your jumping off point actually get into the business of starting and leading schools.
Graham Frey 5:58
When I was a senior in high school, I really wanted to be a teacher, you know, most seniors want to leave, they want to go off into the world and get out of school. And I looked around and thought, you know, it'd be pretty cool to be a coach, and a teacher, History teacher. And I had this Mr. Chips view of what school was all about. Fast forward to my first teaching experience. And, you know, the Internet was pretty new. I'm aging myself a little bit here. But the internet was very new at this point. And I discovered that I could show lectures of really smart people, to my students, which was much better than my lecture on the Civil War, or my lecture on missing Mesopotamia. I'm not an expert in Mesopotamia by any means. And it unlocked what could be possible for me in education, and I got in a lot of trouble. I got in trouble because I was no longer the expert in the room. I was no longer the expert lecturer, but I was bringing in people like Shelby Foote, via the Internet to, you know, to speak to the kids. And that was my jumping off point. That was the point where I was like, you know, I think I can go off and, and, and build something that can be different than what these what these kids are experiencing right now.
Evan Baehr 7:15
Play out that troubled moment, was it a headmaster that came in with a ruler and rapped on the knuckles, or what happened?
Graham Frey 7:21
Basically, basically, we had a digital projector, and I would, I would hook up my laptop, it wasn't when optical drives are just connected. So I would either get a DVD and put it into into the, you know, into the computer and project it or there were some a couple of sites on the Internet that had some video. And that would be that's where I started and I literally got hauled in to the administrator's office asking me what I was up to. And he insisted that instead of using video that I actually should have this true story that I actually should draw out the characters on the chalkboard, right? We didn't have whiteboards and chalkboards. And I was like, so let's go to you know, so if I'm talking about, I don't know, US history, and I draw a picture of Thomas Jefferson. He said, Yes. And I said, and I well, to push a little further, I actually tried to I showed him my picture of Thomas Jefferson, which did not amuse him what sort
Evan Baehr 8:16
of look like every other human ever drawn
Graham Frey 8:18
exactly like a stick figure. So yeah. And I realized at that point time that I need to go off and, and try this on my own.
Evan Baehr 8:26
Was that a hard decision to make a good imagine you're on a track, parents are liking you, it's going well with students, that sort of maybe like an entrepreneurial moment, like, Hey, I am not wired to sit inside an organization, I'm wired to like, go do something else.
Graham Frey 8:42
It was really difficult. I really thought I was going to be a career teacher and coach in one or two particular schools, everything was going quite well, other than getting into trouble for that. You know, I was good at my craft. And I say good, meaning I think I was growing into being a good teacher, when you when you're around great, great teachers, you realize exactly where you stack rank. And it was a big risk. And we had a had a little boy at that point in time. wasn't really sure we weren't making a lot of money as a teacher, but it wasn't, you know, it wasn't sure how to actually to monetize that process and actually found a little school that was falling apart that was looking for a head of school. And I became a head of school sort of overnight. And that's where it started.
Evan Baehr 9:26
What does it mean to be an entrepreneur in education, and I asked it because I am much newer to the field than you are. But drawing on what I thought about education before entering this as an investor. It reminded me a little bit of your story about your own childhood, which are the people involved in shaping a child's education, they need a really great teacher. And of course, you really need great parents involved. And in a weird way, the quality of the teacher and the quality and availability of parents seems on its surface to be actually kind of unrelated to the thing it is that we call the school So like, what does it even mean to be an entrepreneur that designs or build schools?
Graham Frey 10:06
Well, I can, I can tell you how I arrived at this particular place. And it was very much from if I think about my friends who are true education, entrepreneurs, most of them are ed tech folks, right? They had a product, they had an idea that they could could could monetize. And by selling to lots of schools, and that was the majority of entrepreneurial. So it was like it was you know, curriculum based it was textbook, it was sort of on the fringe, it wasn't really changing what was happening in the classroom, per se, but it was on the periphery.
Evan Baehr 10:40
So probably all sort of scalable, digital, and not touching real estate. Correct. Yeah.
Graham Frey 10:48
And if I was more intelligent, I probably would have done that, as my friends have done quite well, and doing that and built some really, really neat things that, that we've utilized, I've utilized over the course of my career. But, you know, I've always been interested in going back to your personal question, what is happening in the four walls of this place where I am dropping off my children? In other words, you know, you have this moment where you look around and go, Man, this could just be better, right? What kid the experience that kids are going through every single day, the experience that staff has, like, how do we how do we get to the point where we are more comfortable with failure? You know, I like to say that the great schools are places that make kids feel uncomfortable, in a place where they're known and loved, that we have to have a really high threshold for what I call well executed failure that, you know, if we think about the history of schools, these are places where we went to learn, and if we're going to go learn, that means that we're admitting really quickly that we don't know everything, right, it should be a learning organization. And unfortunately, I think a lot of schools that fall into this place where they have that, you know, sort of all figured out. And that's simply not true, right? It's simply simply this process where we have to go, you know, make sure that schools are committed to change and iteration. So, you know, when I started down this path, I took over a fledgling school, and I converted it from a from a nonprofit to a for profit, and we sold it. And it wasn't because of the fact that I was really bright or knew what I was going to do. But we simply, we had, you know, the first day of school, we had more students, or we had more staff than we had students. And I understood that we were going to run out of money. And so it was a matter of really thinking about, like, how do we restructure this, and I realized that was not only restructuring it from a financial perspective, right, getting really smart and lean, about what we could afford what we couldn't afford, but was also a cultural change. We had to create an organization that people believed in, and the kids and family and students really believed they were limitless and everything was possible. So I ended up in a sort of, by accident, if you will, and, and really pushing back on this idea that schools need to operate differently than a business. And that was that was a pretty entrepreneurial thought at that point. There were for profit schools, for sure. There were, you know, but but for the most part, the idea was that I was going to, you know, most schools were built on a business plan, private schools, where I had my tuition income. And then the way I made things work at the end of the year was I raised money I went out and I, you know, I spent a significant amount of time raising money. And I never really understood that, I felt like you should be able to create a model where you're, you know, where your tuition can drive your your revenue, and you can build a model that's effective, and you aren't reliant upon alumni or you're not relying upon the generosity of somebody to simply make ends meet by the end of the year.
Evan Baehr 13:55
Let's press a little bit on ways in which a school is a business or is an entrepreneurial endeavor, most of what venture capitals look at would be companies that can define a cost of acquisition and elect him by the customer, usually a SAS base, you know, distributed digital service that's looking at sort of conversion happening on the order of hours in the lifetime by happening over a month, you get a buy somewhere framework, you just say, Okay, how much does it cost to acquire a customer? What's the tuition including if it's paid by a voucher or private pay by individual tuition? What are the ways in which that sort of standard entrepreneurial framework on CAC and LTV and maximizing lifetime value the customer and maximizing market cap and exiting through a sale or going public? Are there any ways that that elementary venture capital approach of building businesses doesn't work for education?
Graham Frey 14:49
Well, I think that certainly there's some ways where I think the traditional venture capital viewpoint may not work. I think it's a longer horizon. I think you have to be cognizant that that if your customer acquisition is simply slower, you know, we think about, so we think about the big economic indicators for a school, obviously cost to educate your average cost to educate your average income per student, and then your cost to acquire, that's often what we look at from the standpoint of those, you know, sort of big, big things, when we think about do we have a going concern here, you know, as our as our cost to educate, continuing to stay stable or decrease as our income, you know, increasing, and as our cost to acquire, continuing to continue to drop. And we also look at retention, you know, Healthy Schools retain above 90% of their students, your two year, schools that are retaining far less than that, let's say 50%, are really in trouble. If you think about your reacquiring all these customers, and plus, there's a natural transition, there comes a point in time when students graduate, right, so you have this funnel that exists, if you don't have a lifetime customer, you're not Netflix, where you can suddenly have this customer for 30 or 40 years, you have a limited amount of time that you're in school. So you have to think about the the structure of a school separately than a traditional business, per se. And it's also takes a tremendous amount of time to acquire customers. Children are very near and dear to their parents. And so there's, there's there's care, that goes into the enrollment of a child, and then you have to fulfill upon those enrollment promises. And everybody has a different viewpoint to what school really is, you know, school, similar to sports, everybody played a sport for the most part, everybody went to school, so they have a vision of what school is all about. So when you think about when you think about structuring a school, from a financial perspective, from a business perspective, I think it is it is, it's very possible to make a venture back program work, realizing the horizon is probably a little bit longer. But that's one of the you know, my beliefs in the platform concept, that you can actually share resources between different types of schools. And that will actually give you the advantage of having a lower cost to your structure or backbone, and really be enable leaders to focus on program culture.
Evan Baehr 17:09
That question about the long horizon is very interesting. One of our advisors, friends, who you've I'm sure read a lot from and spend time with Rick Hanna scheck at Stanford has super interesting research that basically says that the performance of a base of schoolchildren in a nation on the PISA test score is the item that most highly predicts GDP growth of a nation. So were you a benevolent dictator of a nation, and you're allocating $100 billion? I don't know you put all of it where you started, but most of it into driving outcomes of having an educated youth. So in that sense, it's pretty wild to think about how much economic value is created. The challenge in that scenario is the delay could be 20 or 30 years. And so so much value is, is created. But the value capture thing does seem to be a wrinkle here, so many other businesses, the value creation, value capture happens in such a shorter time period. How do you wrestle through that?
Graham Frey 18:19
Yeah, this is this is, this is a great point. And especially if you think about some of the basic things that that he speaks of the kids, you know, what does it mean to be, you know, basically educated by the time you're a junior in high school, and I believe he talks about, you know, being able to solve a simple algebraic formula, right? Which we, you know, which is a pretty low bar, for the most part, right, that's something that we should be able to do and middle school. And so, you know, I think that education, people like to talk a lot about education, but there isn't a lot of action associated with it. If if, you know, the famous Peter Thiel question of the sort of contrarian question, I think most people just simply don't, they're not overly invested. They simply just, you know, I would say the average American doesn't really care about education, which is a shocking thing to say, but but when we look at the landscape of what we have, and I have a little bit of a follow up to this, but we look at the landscape of what we have, it's, it's not particularly interesting, right? And it is certainly the education that our kids are going through today, or is not preparing a child for the workplace that they will be entering into. There was a time when we think we understood where you know, the workers that we need, or what the workplace would look like. But post 2008 You know, things have changed and we don't really have the ability to predict what the workplace is going to look like. And you know, kids simply are unprepared to walk into that. Walk into that space
Evan Baehr 19:54
can ask for a little history lesson on that. I've recently enjoyed watching some of the History Channel series on the men who made America the the factories of the machines that built America. And I'm curious, like, was there a time in point where Heinz and Ford got together with the Head of Education and said, Listen, this is how the assembly line is gonna work. This is what our factories need. So, you know, teachers are rolled out from the top down, like, in the past, when the needs of workers evolved, how did it mediate through how we educate our kids?
Graham Frey 20:26
Well, you know, there's a lot, there's a lot written on on the past, and I, you know, I'm no expert on how our education system was, was derived. And in fact, I tried to pride myself, in really talking about what's next versus sort of beating down the system that exists today or in the past. There's clearly, you know, there were clearly a lot of factors at work, you know, the ability to create pathways for a range of jobs, the ability to control population, was certainly a factor, which is not a very popular thing to talk about. And, you know, it also, I think it was, you know, let's go to the protection of, I think there's some protection of wealth that was that existed as well. But you know, when you, when you think about it, just sit back and think about, like, if I have a large number of children, let's say, a couple 1000, how do I manage them during the day, so a lot of our school systems are created to just for custodial purposes, right? You know, how do I approach making sure that kids move through particular day efficiently, that everybody safe, right, and, and that they can walk out of here at 18, and either go to college, or join the military or be functioning in some way, you know, obviously get get a job of some sort, and become part of a part of productive society. So I think it you know, I didn't want to spend too much time going back into the history of education, but it certainly was not built with the idea of hitting these really high standards and producing a number of entrepreneurs. Now, that being said, as you know, I, I really, I really like to focus on sort of the today and the next for where we're going in education, I find a lot of folks who really spend, you know, a bunch of time talking about all the problems in our system. And, you know, my focus is, is really on like, we understand those we know where we are, but how do we what do we do? What's next, right? What do we focus on, and specifically execution? You know, what's interesting is that, if you go back pre 2008, and you and I've talked about this, if you go back pre 2008, we would do one of two things, if we had the means we would either find the best private school that we could send our children to, or we'd move into the best district that we could possibly send our children to, and there was always this fight to get to that particular point, I think that's pretty universal in the country. And if I, if I didn't have the ability to do that, then then I knew that my kids were getting a second rate education. And then all of a sudden, you know, we've had this shift, where we are really excited about these alternative models. So we're excited about new models. And and we have a number of people who are saying, you know, I'll try a start up school, versus the traditional pathway of trying to find a private school or a really great district, I might find a great charter school. And so, you know, when we think about the overall landscape, I look at these three different buckets, we have, you know, traditional private schools and and, you know, charter schools, I would still put it somewhere in that bucket, and then obviously, private schools, and then, you know, another bucket or home schools and pods, now, homeschooling and pods and small schools and start your own schools, those have always existed. In fact, if we go back to the history of private schools, that's how school started, right? You would have hired a Latin tutor for your children. And I would have said, Hey, Evan, I really want my kids to learn Latin, can they can they come over? And I'll chip in, and then you'll, you might find, you know, and obviously, the bear academies began. And that's how we started schools. But now that, you know, there's there in the middle, there are these, you know, next generation schools, whether it's an axon or a long view, or you know, that people are, you know, really attracted to and what's interesting to me is that even people who benefited from a great traditional education, they went to a great district of integrative private school, they went to a wonderful university are coming to me and saying, like, I want to do something different with my kids. I want my kids to do to have a completely different academic experience than what I had. I still want them bill to read and I still want them to be able to write I want math really important, but how do we know there must be a way to do this differently.
Evan Baehr 24:50
I want to ask about that playing out at both ends of the economic spectrum. First, start on the higher end. You served at least some of your parents at alpha One of your most recent, super successful projects were from the higher income bracket. Get us in the mindset of what's happening in that parent's mind today, that's really different than than 10 years ago, maybe 10 years ago, they would say, Well, my son, of course, went to St. Paul's. And we've always gone to St. Paul's, and it's the best way to get into X school. But now, like, what was the tipping point to lead a more traditional, maybe higher income person to say, let's try something else.
Graham Frey 25:29
This is something that I'm really, I'm really fascinated with. And I've spent a bunch of time interviewing parents, and especially young parents, you know, who are, let's say, you know, 28, to 32, and are really, you know, pursuing different programs for their kids, I, I got to think that the 2008 crisis was part of this, right? That all of a sudden, you know, that the standard pathway of I go to a good college, there's going to be a good job on the other side. And that's just, that's, you know, that's going to work for everybody simply goes away, right, sort of Lehman Brothers moment, you know, that, that you know, that that process, or that pathways just is falling apart, I also think it is the way that we work is so different, you know, that when you when you work, the way that we do, you suddenly realize how different our experiences are than what our kids are going through. And so I think that those are two big contributions to how we think about education. And then, you know, the idea that we have to move our family somewhere, you think about school, if I, if I'm interested in public school, I have to be able to afford a house in a particular district, and I have to move my family into that district. And if things don't go well, for my family, then I have to either think about moving or I just shrug my shoulders and say, Well, guys, this is this, it is what it is, right. And the idea of being bound by our housing choice to a particular schools is a strange thought process. If I want to live in an urban environment, or if I want to live in a rural environment, that that's going to dictate the future of my children. That's kind of an odd, odd idea. And so I think that some of the clarity came through from that, clearly, the pandemic was the next big push here. Now, a lot of these schools started to grow pre pandemic. But, you know, the idea of schools shutting down, and then families being able to see what their kids are actually doing with their time, the actual learning process, the discovery, that there just isn't a ton of content between ninth grade between kindergarten and ninth grade or kindergarten, eighth grade, and that their days could be much more efficient. I think, you know, for a lot of kids, working with their parents, their parents suddenly said, Wait a second. I remember this, like I remember how inefficient This is. And there's just got to be something different out there for my children. So I think it's a combination of those of those particular things that has driven this hope for choice.
Evan Baehr 28:04
At the other end of the economic spectrum, I think is a jumping off point to this theme we've picked up a few times around is education, a business or in what ways is forming schools and driving education different than the standard entrepreneurial journey? I think it's close to 90% of American schoolchildren go to public schools, where for the vast majority of them, there is no choice, correct? There is no parent assessing pros cons, how's it going? Can you speak a little bit to following the news, obviously, a number of lower income parents whose kids were stuck in public schools, especially under the pandemic, had their own version of a wake up call that manifests in ways that are different than what we were just talking about. But what did you see there at the lower end of the spectrum? What are those parents thinking about today?
Graham Frey 28:47
You know, when we think about school choice, school choice is a privilege. That's what we were just just talking about the idea that, that you and I have the ability to choose where we want our kids to go to certain degree. Obviously, the choice has to exist within within the communities. But for the most part, education is a monopoly. And families simply do not have choice. Even if you think about a charter school, for a family that doesn't have a lot of means they have to figure out a how to how to get to the lottery, they have to even know that the school exists, then they have to figure out how they're going to get their child to that school every day. Right. And so there's some very basic barriers that they simply, you know, that are really hard to overcome, if I'm an hourly worker. And so I simply just don't have a lot of choice. And so when I think about and I keep, we often we just refer to urban schools in this situation, right when we think about tougher socio economic bands, but rural is just as much of a concern, right? They just simply don't have the course offerings, right. They don't have the after school programs in many ways. And so I think there's some some if I'm a if I'm a Family In the city of New Orleans, or my family in the city of Cleveland, and I'm trying to figure out how do I best create a better situation for my children? I'm hoping for, you know, I've got to do a bunch of research and try to find a situation that will work for me, but it's going to put a significant strain on my, on my family. And and how do we, you know, I'm really interested in seeing like, how do we lower the barrier to entry for those specific families? How do we get introduced more choice? And how do we chip away at the monopolies that exists in those particular communities? And there are some great groups that are that are dedicated towards doing that both rural and urban. But really, you know, we think about, we think a lot, a lot of our urban areas, you've probably heard me say this analogy before, you know, I know where I can get a great cup of coffee, right. But I only have one choice for school. Right? And we need to figure out how we can build schools that can really, you know, they can they can be as prolific as a Starbucks, right? That we need to be able to figure out how we can open a school quickly how we can provide choice to families. And then you know, I think that real innovation occurs when you can deliver a really high quality product at a price the majority of people can afford. And that's, you know, that's ultimately my goal, or one of my major goals. And so, you know, when I go back to thinking about, you know, if I go back to growing up in rural Ohio, when I went through that particular experience, you know, we had one school, that was it, we had one option, there were there wasn't you know, there wasn't, there wasn't another option to go to school at that point in time, nor were there means to do so. And we must be able to figure out a better way,
Evan Baehr 31:49
I want to get a little flavor of these really interesting schools that you built or key in the leadership of, there's so many to less, but let's just get let's get get some some quick, hot takes. IMG, tell people what it is and what sort of like a big takeaway you had from learning and being a part of that culture.
Graham Frey 32:08
IMG Academy in Bradenton, Florida is one of the most innovative schools in the world. Nick, Balotelli just passed, so our respects to him and his family. But it really started as a tennis academy. What's interesting about this is that similar to you know, we talked about the bear academy that would start teaching Latin, I'm sure. You know, Nick needed a way to educate these young children who were coming to play tennis for him, right, yet he had so many such an amazing tennis coach. And the reason it's so inspiring, is that it is a place that prides itself in excellence. Right? It prides itself in work. And when you bring those things together, and you look at a child and say that you can be anything, right, and that amazing things happen. I also think what's unique about the academy, is that the way that the day is structured, you know, they they actually the kids actually go to school half the day, alright. So they're actually operate two schools, they operate a morning school and afternoon school, and the rest of the time they're playing sports. When you just think about that you think about well, these kids are, you know, on a very similar academic pathway, as kids who are attending an entire day somewhere else, right. And yet, they can do that and half the day. And then they can spend the rest of the day doing something that they love. And then they're surrounded by a group of really highly motivated inspirational people. So, you know, that really introduced to me what was possible, you know, if you start to rethink, like, let's think about schedule, and let's think about how we use our time. And let's think about passing time, let's think about what content do we really need to work through. And oh, and by the way, there going to be this group of kids who are going to be gone for six months, because they're all professional tennis players. And so we're gonna meet them kind of on the first day of school, and then meet them sort of towards the end, and then we'll have to figure out what to do in between. So that was, that was a super fun project to work on. I love the academy. I have lots of dear friends
Evan Baehr 34:02
there. What's the craziest thing to an outsider who would visit img? Like what's what's the most intense weirdness? What would you be surprised by?
Graham Frey 34:11
I think everybody is really surprised the fact that there are 16 year old kids who are working out right alongside professional athletes, and that neither blink, but the kids take pride in working hard and they're working on their craft. And they may look over and there'll be a professional athlete right next to them. And that person is is taking pride in in their, in their craft. And so it's it's such a it's an environment that in many ways has no hierarchy when it comes to the kids and the athletes, right? And then the mutual respect that the different athletes have for each other the football players have for the tennis players. I think that's really interesting. And then and then the thing that people I think are always surprised by strangely is that when you walk into a classroom, they're really good work. That's how academically, you know, people write it off they go, it's just a sports academy. But these kids have big dreams, right? They're gonna go play golf at Stanford, or they're gonna, you know, they need to get through the NCAA clearinghouse to go play, you know, football, it's a wonderful place, and they're, they're highly committed,
Evan Baehr 35:16
let's pick up on alpha, we should do multiple pods on it, we don't have time for it, it's this amazing thing you built, first thumbnail sketch of what is alpha.
Graham Frey 35:24
Alpha is a school that's dedicated to, you know, to three things. Number one, kids love school number two, that kids will learn twice as fast. And number three, the kids will learn life skills. So very clear, very basic, I love the idea of schools that have super simple mission and philosophy. And so you know, the basic mission is that love schools pretty, pretty easy to think about. But most people don't love school. And you know, for me, and I believe for Alfa Laval school all comes to engagement, I want kids to be engaged in their day. And so the way that we fostered a lot of that, were some simple things. You know, we believed in this thing, we believed in approaching every single day with unparalleled enthusiasm. That meant when the kids get out of their car in the morning, there's music playing, and people are dancing. There may be some staff and costumes, because we know when you're seven or eight years old, you're full of energy for the day, you're you're not thinking about all the things you have to do that day, you're just excited about what's going to happen. And you have to remember that every first grader, second grader, third grader never gets a chance to repeat, you know, their first day of school or their 15th day of school, right, everything is so unique to them. So you got to take that enthusiasm and carry throughout the day. So having students engaged in the day having schools having kids love, school actually produces an environment where kids are going to learn faster, just just like us, if we're really engaged in what we're doing every day, that we can, you know, work on things that are appropriate for us that we can work where we want to work, we're going to be further engaged in school, that means we're going to learn faster. What's super unique about alpha, from an academic perspective, that second pillar learning twice as fast, everyone is, only uses adaptive software. So this is specific learning software, where kids can receive a diagnostic and then are placed in the software to make sure that they are working on the content that they need to master. So instead of sitting in a classroom, that has a range of kids at all these different levels, every single child at alpha is on a individualized pathway. And that is enabled by software. So that's a that's a revolutionary thought. And, you know, really, alpha is leading the way in the world as far as this is concerned. And then, when you combine that with love of school, right, there's a there's a cycle there, because if I'm suddenly working on the things that I need to work on, and I can feel that sense of accomplishment, that that actually makes me further engaged in school and I start to enjoy school, I'm not worried about the person next to me, or on the other side of me that may be studying something different, because I'm putting the same amount of work in on what I need to do. And that creates this environment where kids start to really believe in themselves and the software helps empower that. Then the final piece of is that we can become really efficient, right? So if we think about kids love schools, they're further engaged. We've got software, we can learn in half the amount of time with kids are doing a traditional school that opens up the afternoon, similar to what we saw at img. And in those afternoons, you can work on life skills, what are tangible things that we really want kids to understand? How to give a good presentation, right? How to learn how to learn how to develop skills, and Applied Computer Science, right? really tangible things. I love schools that talk about lofty ideas like being you know, being an international citizen or understanding global content that's really hard to do. I think for for for, for kids, you have to just come up with really tangible things right? Can I can I understand how to give and receive feedback. And so alpha is a phenomenal place. And it was a super fun project we had we had a great team. And from what I understand everything's going really well.
Evan Baehr 39:25
One of the things we like to explore at learn is the notion of human flourishing. Some of the stuff that you just tick through, may expand a little bit beyond maybe a traditional understanding of education, which sort of thinks about mastering the basics of math, physics, science, reading, etc. You're adding on to that list sort of life skills. Are they prepared to enter a dynamic workforce? How do you think about schools and their need to deliver on helping a child on their path to flourish?
Graham Frey 39:55
Oh, I think it's the most important job ever. that schools become the platform for kids to go off and live an extraordinary life. Right? That is core to me and my beliefs. That's what's great schools, you know, put put kids in situation to do, it's not about college prep, it's about going off and living an extraordinary full life. I worked with a wonderful teacher at a at a pretty cool school. And he used to talk about full throttle. He's like, I want to produce kids who, man they're just full throttle, right. And, and, and that's, that's really what we want. So when we think about flourishing, we think about the overall development you start to this is where it gets fun. What really matters, you know, what really matters for young kids, I believe that the pillars are reading, writing and math, right? If I have a strong foundation, and reading and math, then I am I am set right no matter what I can go gobble up more content. And so, you know, I really like to see models that preface those two things as the most important pillars in which I'm going to build upon, you know, it's going to be really unpopular for me to say this, but a lot of science and you know, especially K through eight is reading comprehension. And and I think the best way to teach science is actually through experiments, right is actually through kids rolling up their sleeves, and experiential learning, project based learning, get them away from the textbooks and those things so they can gobble those, you know, they can gobble up the actual experience, right? You want to see kids come alive, they want to build things, and they will blow things up. And they want to take things apart, let them do that and understand the science behind that. Storytelling. You know, every great leader is a great storyteller. And I think that one of things I love about alpha, is that they have a very clear commitment to to reading what you love, until you love to read.
Evan Baehr 41:46
Some of the unexpected things that come up in some of the research with our friends at Harvard, are some things around the quality of relationships. So being connected, having people that you can share vulnerable things with healthy mental health, the ability to cope and manage anxiety, and depression. Other people look to transcendent pieces, do you encounter transcendent things in art or religion? Maybe some of the kinds of things that don't end up in a lot of you know, shortlist of what Cato was doing.
Graham Frey 42:18
Yeah, I think all those things are certainly same direction that I was thinking of. So the first thing I would say, from an academic perspective is if we're just not strong enough, and reading, writing and math, right, we're just we don't do a good enough job in those areas. And then school at scale, meaning if I have 500 600 800 1000 3000 kids in a building, it makes it extremely hard to build deep relationships. And one of the things that we talked about earlier was, you know, the impact that one or two teachers can have on a child's life, right? And so it becomes happenstance, right? There's these three great teachers out there. But if I have 40 kids in a classroom, and I'm teaching 120 160 kids and my load, how do I build in the time to connect with those particular kids? I simply can't do some certain things academically, I can't have kids have kids right enough? But how do I actually build them the time to build those relationships? And then how do the kids build the relationship with one another? Right? How do they build a sense of community from that standpoint, and so I think in many ways, school has just become way too scripted, out of necessity, and it doesn't allow for the opportunity for kids to experiment and relationship doesn't allow for kids to create those bonds that, you know, they're gonna live from. If we think about school in a nutshell, it is it is the first place that our children go in kindergarten, where it's really their own community. Right? When your kids walk off into school, they're building community, not based on who their parents are, but basically who they are right. And the next time they really get that opportunity, really, and truly is when they go off to college. Right. So that K through 12 experience, they are shaping themselves, they are going to spend hours upon hours upon hours, with one another with mentors, and they're really going to grow and change. And so I think it's important for them to have the ability to connect with one another, I think it's important for them to have enough. School has to be the right size for them to be really well known and loved. And for them to also be pushed so that they understand failure. But they frankly, they also understand that they can go out and lead an exceptional life.
Evan Baehr 44:27
Let me try potentially a really bad metaphor on you. So if imagine there's a food court at a mall, and there are a bunch of individual stalls that are different restaurants. Here's the metaphor edtech innovation on better apps and tools and courses and MOOCs to help kids learn physics faster, are sort of like innovating on having better stalls, like the faster chicken sandwich or the better chicken sandwich. And although it's important to think about them mix of what different tools and pedagogies and apps etc. A school would use. Designing a school is really actually about designing, which of those get to be in the food court. But it's also about designing the dang food court. Is it outside? Does it have tables? How many people are in it? Is it loud? Is it quiet? Can you use phone to the tables? That's not a great metaphor, but react to that what elements of that resonate?
Graham Frey 45:23
No, I think I think it actually is a good metaphor, right? We think about the tools that we're plugging into a particular system or particular place. But you know, one of the things I encourage people to do when they're thinking about the health of their school, is to follow a child through particular day, wake up at the same time they do go to school, go to class, see what it's like to go through five minutes of passing time as a sophomore, how do I swim upstream to get to the next class, you know, eat the school lunch, right? And what they suddenly realize is that, that, that, you know, watch a teacher who's got, I got to take attendance, and then I've got to make sure I make it through this much content by this particular point in time, and I've got to manage all, you know, 40 kids in a room, right, you know, managing 40, kids, 30 kids, 20 kids in a place, right, we've all been through that process. And so, so we just think about the structure, the structure isn't built in a way that promotes flourishing. So I think your food court analogy is is is really is really appropriate. Because ultimately, the overall experience of the food court, we can, we can work on the tools, the stalls, the different types of food that's there. But if the experience of the space isn't built in a way where we're really enjoying our overall experience, foods not gonna taste as good. But we're actually never going to be able to use the tools to their potential. And what happens too often education is that there's a next great thing or tool, and the actual introduction of that tool into the community isn't done the right way. So the adoption is never really successful. And that becomes, you know, unfortunately, sometimes the tools fall out because they don't get used enough and so that you know, that they drop out of the budget the next year, they're never really used to their full potential. You know, it's it's very similar to a gym, right? I use a gym analogy to tons of analogies you can do with athletics, right? For this perspective, but the treadmill is only as good as I make it, right? The barbell is only as good as I make it. And I can continue to try to improve on the treadmill, but if I don't understand how to use it, and I don't use it appropriately, and I don't, I'm not thoroughly engaged in that process, then it's never really going to flourish using that thing.
Evan Baehr 47:41
We're towards the end of our conversation, but we are not giving short shrift to hawk craft ventures Holcroft studio because really, to me, it is a manifestation of platform of, of your life's work. Describe what the studio's what it does.
Graham Frey 47:56
This has been something that's been on my brain for for a long time. John Mehta, who was the head of President of RISD, stood up for a bunch of private school educators years ago, and said, you know, with a square account in a free room at the library, you can start school, paraphrasing a little bit, and I almost jumped out of my seat and started clapping. Much to the chagrin of the people around me, because they're thinking, Well, you know, I need all these pillars, and I need the, you know, the bricks and I need all these things in order to create and build a great school. But if we go back to to the central point, that we were just talking about relative to the food court, right, if I can create an environment for kids that they're thoroughly engaged in, and, and, you know, an ability to thrive, right, which I think is really what we want as parents, then I have the heart of a school. And that can happen in a church basement. It could happen in office building. And so I think that, that my wheels started to turn at that point, I was like, Wait a second, how hard is it to start a school? Well, it's really hard. Right? It's, it's, it's quite, it's quite, it's quite an endeavor,
Evan Baehr 49:08
what do you need beyond that room, in the library in a square account?
Graham Frey 49:12
Well, you know, in certain states, there's a lot of regulation that you need to jump through in order to make sure that you can actually start a school and some of that is appropriate. And some of that's important. In Texas, you know, we can start a school pretty easily, which is one of the great things about about about our particular state, going back to the particular business model, you need to really understand the economics behind school that most I see plenty of schools that are there, even some that are well well funded, where they just simply don't have a really good business plan, like any particular any particular business. The person who's starting their school with their square account and their basement may be really good at teaching math, but how are they going to teach the other subjects that are expected from that particular place? What is the role of accreditation? One of the things that's really important when you start a school is also making sure the kids can transition into other schools successfully and go beyond your school successfully. And so making sure I understand that particular point, you know, when I think about schools, when I think about three big pieces, I think about structure, you know, what are the nuts and bolts of making sure I have a really safe, well operated place for kids to go to school, I think about the academic program, you know, making sure that I can cover those basic pillars, and understand that the kids are learning and I can demonstrate that, and then the culture, making sure it is a place where where that fits, you know, into the ideals of the founder or ideals of the of the of the, of the group that's putting the school together, and it a place that kids can really flourish. And so, I think that a lot of first time operators don't really have understanding of those three buckets. And, and, you know, get into either economic trouble or cultural trouble don't understand that the kids aren't particularly learning, you know, at a rate that is that is important. And so, you know, what's unique, I think about this particular moment, and why I'm so excited about whole craft, is that, you know, for the first time, I think we really have a clear understanding of, you know, how to best employ education, technology, and the technology has improved to a point and continues to improve, where we can be smart about allowing software to do things that it's really good, and letting humans do what they're really good at. Right. And so those two things can work together. I think we have a parent group and a student group who are really excited about, you know, looking at things alternatively, right. You know, they don't want to be wed to a traditional place or a traditional calendar, but they want to be able to have more flexibility when it comes to their schooling. I think that we have funders, you know, we have a group of a group or community of funders who are really excited to see what could school be. And then obviously, policy changes, right, we've seen the growth and in the way states are approaching how they're going to fund funds, schools, the willingness to allow the dollars to follow the kids. And so when you start to think about this, and you look at the landscape and go, Wait a second, for the first time, I'm not necessarily fighting up stream against every single piece that's there, that these things are these big buckets are coming into line. And that is why I believe right now is the time to be able to go create non traditional high quality schools, and lots of those quickly.
Evan Baehr 52:28
One of the components to launching a whole new generation of massive awesome schools that create lots of market cap and change the lives of millions of kids, is getting great operators getting great CEOs into the mix. I remember 11 years ago, we were working on a project in business school, and I have a classmate of mine had been head of the healthcare vertical on the app store for Apple. So I helped source new healthcare related apps for the App Store. And at that time, there were like, a few dozen apps total in healthcare. And as we got into that, no serious entrepreneurs, especially development minded ones want to go in healthcare because thinking about HIPAA and FDA and this whole mess of things just felt so unattractive as a market to enter into. I wonder if there's something here like do you have in your mind, a 25 year old bright eyed, super talented generalist entrepreneur, like you would love for her to get the sense that like, haul craft would be a partner that knock down some of these barriers to entry that then her entrepreneurial energy can be focused on building schools is that one of the constituencies you're thinking about
Graham Frey 53:30
100% You know, one of things that we learned at alpha, and I was really intentional about it alpha was was trying to hire people who did not have a background in education, I was looking for folks who wanted to chew on the problem, that is an education, versus somebody who was necessarily planning on being a career educator. And in many ways, I hired these super young, smart folks, and said, Look, just come work my work with me for a couple of years, and then go off and do whatever's next. But just think that you're going to be able to spend a couple of years in, you know, in the best place in the world to think about, you know, education and chew on these things and iterate and, and be a part of this really cool culture. And that will become part of who you are. And you always feel really good about that. And so, in learning that, you know, I realized like, wait a second, we can actually take people out right out of college, we can go through, you know, a couple of years of training, and we can take we can put them in a situation they can go operate schools. And, you know, the other side of it is that if you take out the structural components of what they're traditionally saddled with, right, everything from you know, the financial side to the food service to the facility and those things and they allow them to really focus on delivering excellent program and really striving to build a great culture that you give them the opportunity to be much more successful. And that's a big part of when we think about whole craft is get look Can we can we build a team that really The crushes really builds the best possible structural component, right, and then can then build a academic platform that allows people to launch these programs really soundly. And then finally allows for enough autonomy allow local control over the cultural components. So those are really understanding that and we're excited about beyond do that.
Evan Baehr 55:22
You guys are building a studio, this is now a known model, Rocket Internet and others have pioneered these core to the studio concept. However, it's not that you're building one entity that you might launch multiple, even a year dozens over the next decade run, why not build the ultimate school that just scales and crushes it for everyone?
Graham Frey 55:45
Great question. This goes back to choice. I believe that families need more choices, that we find that that that our kids are different. And that just because school a was great for my first child doesn't mean that school is going to be great for my second child. And so it makes sense to be able to have schools that are tailored towards the needs specific kids. We know what it's like to build a giant school that serves everybody who crossed the threshold. We've seen that in action, right? And so now, why can't we build lots of schools that are different, that are fundamentally culturally different, that have different aspects of their program, that better serve a smaller population of kids within that particular structure. So, you know, I really think this goes back to choice, you know, think about choice. We have so many choices and everything we want to do, whether it's what we drive, whether it's what we eat, you know, we're one of things we pride ourselves is the freedom to choose. And we simply don't have a lot of choices when it comes to education. We're struck or stuck with very few options. And so I see this, as you know, the very basic component like a, can we build better schools that are there that are well operated? B, can we introduce a number of different types of programs, academic programs, that people can feel really confident in, but that are different? And then see, can I can I structure this in a cultural way where I can satisfy the different types of personalities I have, and the families in a particular community, I think it's great for educators to go want to build the super school, the one model that's going to work best for everybody. But you know, one of the things that I've learned it working at lots of different schools is every single one of those schools has a slightly different mission has a slightly different philosophy. And you know, when those schools are running really well, they were very true to that. Where they got into trouble was when they're trying to serve all children. And if they just stuck to the kids that they were really well aligned with, they built a great community. By creating more choices for families, I believe we can achieve that, that we can actually build really sound programs for lots of different communities and enable choice.
Evan Baehr 58:12
As we wrap speed round five quick questions, five quick answers. Imagine a young entrepreneur, hard at work finding their way in the world. These are your five tips for them. Number one, book recommendation, what book and very briefly, why.
Graham Frey 58:26
book recommendation, Wow, there's so many, well, hey, let's just use tribe, you know, which a good friend of ours gave to me. I think that schools enable a sense of tribe, I think it's really important to understand those particular bonds and understand how we work well with with one another. And also understand that that sense of tribe is what will make ourselves successful within a community and successful for a family.
Evan Baehr 58:55
So good. Number two, podcast.
Graham Frey 58:57
Well, your podcast is obviously my number one,
Evan Baehr 59:00
you've admitted you don't listen to it. Lie. Keep killing your second favorite podcast.
Graham Frey 59:06
My second favorite podcast, you know, I love how I built this, and I love Stuff You Should Know. I think those are just two really basic, you know, the stories of entrepreneurs I think are fascinating. And the trials and tribulations that go through it you know, that's my favorite. Those that one and then I would say the other ones Stuff You Should Know and they're all these things out there that I'd need to know more about.
Evan Baehr 59:30
Number three movie.
Graham Frey 59:32
I'm very opinionated when it comes to movies. Cool Hand Luke is probably my favorite. Butch Cassidy Sundance Kid is is is right up there. And so you know one of the I'll tell you quickly on the movies during the lockdown my youngest son and I watched about 130 different movies. We went through every movie a young boy should watch.
Evan Baehr 59:58
I need that list. That sounds amazing. No For a skill to learn,
Graham Frey 1:00:02
wow, a skill to learn. I mean, they're the obvious ones, everybody should know how to, you know, everybody should know how to change a tire and be able to take care, take care of those things. I, you know, I have so many I've just, I feel so strongly in the skill side of things, you know, I really believe that we need to become resourceful so that we can take care of ourselves. So I'm gonna go with, you know, basic first aid and in camping, right, you know, I should be able to start a fire and I should be able to survive when the weather changes, and my house falls apart.
Evan Baehr 1:00:36
Amazing. Number five, a place to go visit.
Graham Frey 1:00:39
One of my dreams is to be able to go to all the places that we couldn't go when I was a child. And so the places that because of the cold war, because of international conflict, we couldn't go. And I've been to a number of those places, which has been fascinating. And, you know, my youngest son is just finished 26 Different countries that are my eldest son, sorry, 26 different countries this last year, as he goes in, pursues those places. I mean, I am mesmerized at different populations. But as you know, I most recently been going to Cuba, mostly partially for fishing and also for the wonderful culture.
Evan Baehr 1:01:16
Those are our five you get round six bonus round. In a food court in a mall. What is your fast food vendor of choice?
Graham Frey 1:01:26
My fast food vendor of choice. Well, when I was a kid, it would have been the Orange Julius for sure. And we had one Chick fil A, I think in our entire town, Cleveland, Ohio, and that would have been my choice. That would have been my my choice for sure. But every time I pass a, you know, a McDonald's, I still want a Big Mac. I haven't had one in years, but still want a Big Mac.
Evan Baehr 1:01:50
Graham, appreciate you being with us today. Hey, tell us for folks wanting to learn more about how craft or your work? How can they do that?
Graham Frey 1:01:56
Great. We've got a simple site at Hall craft schools.com. And we'd love to invite people to go there, fill out the quick, the quick little form there and get us their email and we'll then send them information about a school coming to their area soon.
Evan Baehr 1:02:12
Awesome. Thanks for being with us, Graham. Appreciate it. Thank you.
Evan Baehr 1:02:20
Thanks for tuning in to venture to flourish. If you know someone who should be listening to the pod, would you do me a favor and just send them a link and check out the site learned out VC slash flourish there, you can subscribe to our newsletter, read transcripts, find related articles and even upcoming events. And hey, on a personal note, I'm really glad you're here. There are a lot of parts of my own life where I feel like I'm languishing. So I love your interest in the topic and look forward to figuring out what we can achieve together. Signing off, it's Evan Baer from venture to flourish