How do we flourish as human beings if we aren’t healthy? How do we incentivize healthy behavior when we are getting more and more sick each year? How do we stay optimistic when the food system appears to be rigged? These are some of the big ideas that drive Calley Means, cofounder of True Medicine, a company that enables Americans to buy exercise equipment and healthy food with FSA/HSA dollars. On this episode of Venture to Flourish, we talk to Calley about going viral on twitter, being motivated by the tragic passing of his Mother, and how we’re not going to “drug” our way out of the current health crisis.
Calley on why we need to expand our definition of what a drug is?
I think most of our lives go from one what would be defined as a drug to the next we get up, we drink caffeine, we check our phone, you know many people look at porn, we take pharmaceutical drugs, there's 17 prescriptions per American issued a year in the United States And we're in this like, chamber of having the system define what’s a drug for us. like all those things are drugs and were literally guided much more than we think by this dopamine reward system.
Calley on how True Medicine will incentivize healthy behavior:
When you talk about any of these metabolic conditions, food and exercise are very often the best medicine. So we utilize that research and what we're trying to do is bring that to the people. We're going to be a payment app embedded in healthy products, where you can take an asynchronous medical survey, and qualified patients will be qualified through the payment flow. To purchase this food is medicine. This exercise is medicine - their favorite supplements, food, exercise products, tax free.
Calley on how big pharma influences medical schools:
The majority of funding that actually goes to major med schools somehow comes from pharma. And that dictates the curriculum. 80% of medical schools in the United States today do not require a single nutrition course. 90% of the overall curriculum is dealing with pharmacology and how to prescribe once people are sick. Doctors in this country just fundamentally do not know the underlying physiology of why people are sick.
Calley on the normalization of poor metabolic health:
Gestational diabetes is normalized, PCOS, which many of our friends are experiencing, is almost normalized. Depression, anxiety, fatigue, low energy, brain fog. The biggest lie in health and the most dangerous gaslighting, I think that's happening, is the idea that people in their 30s and 40s are healthy. We are experiencing things that we should not be accepting. The number one reason for visits to the doctor's office is low energy. That is not normal. It's just just generalized concerns about their energy levels. Right. So let's get that out of the way. We are all most of us are experiencing some kind and understanding that depression, that infertility, that anxiety, that fatigue, it's not normal, it's tied to metabolic health. These are warning signs, we can thrive better
Keep Going:
Read:
Calley’s tweet thread on the rigged food system:
https://twitter.com/calleymeans/status/1609929026889711617?s=20&t=YapMYK_ubldfhhH_YNO8pQ
Evan Baehr 0:03
Imagine this. Your mother has just been diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. She is trying to do everything she can to stay healthy. She buys all the books, reads all the articles changes her diet, she does everything possible to stay alive. And 13 days later, she's gone. Now imagine that you commit your life to sharing that knowledge that your mother so valued and sought with the world, answering the questions of why our food is making us so sick, why our healthcare system doesn't help our health care. That is the story of Kelly means our guest today. I'm Evan Baer. And this is venture to flourish a podcast from learn capital for founders, investors and leaders who are working to build ventures to drive what we call human flourishing. Our guest today is Callie means the co founder and CEO of true medicine, a company that lets you use your HSA dollars to purchase things like exercise equipment, and healthy food. He's also the co author of a pretty amazing book coming out with his sister, Dr. Casey means about food as medicine. A few weeks ago, about 12 million people made him Twitter famous following a tweet about how when he used to work for Coca Cola, they had him go pay off civil rights groups to oppose the sugar tax. That's a pretty crazy story. Join us today as we listened to Kelly's work his journey as an advocate. And when the biggest lie in health care might be that while you love your food, your food doesn't love you. Kelly, thank you for doing this, we will get to it later. But you are a man in great demand, all the big news channels are reaching out to you to talk about your most recent firestorm of a controversial take on on the topic really of of your company and why you built the company. So we are going to get to that you are a multi layered guy, you have a really interesting history across different kinds of industries, but also different kinds of modes of engaging the world. Take us back to sort of post college, give us a quick sketch of some of your career history as we dive into what you're building now.
Calley Means 2:01
Thanks, Evan. I was born and raised, you could say in the swamp I was born and raised in Washington, DC and always dreamed of being in politics. So went out to school at Stanford, and really to pursue a career in public policy. And that's right studied and right after graduation, went on campaign. So work for John McCain. And after that campaign, what I learned is that folks from the left and the right, they inevitably go to these consulting firms and find themselves around the table of special interests. So for several years, I did that and worked with food companies, pharma companies to advance their objectives. It wasn't quite for me. So I decided I wanted to get more into entrepreneurship went to business school, and for the past almost decade or so have been working more on companies. So worked on a company with my wife and ecommerce company. And over that time, a couple personal issues have really convinced me that this food health Nexus is really, I think, the most important issue that we face. My sister, who you know, was a prior to the family, a surgeon dropped out abruptly, under the realization that most of the surgeries she was doing were related to inflammation and really related to people's metabolic health, what they were eating and what she didn't learn in medical school, and went on a journey, starting a company to help people with metabolic health and then personal health issues, my my, my mother's health issues, and really convinced me that there's something wrong with how we think about food, which, which tied back to my earlier experiences working for those companies. So that's led me to where I am today,
Evan Baehr 3:31
I want to pick up on some turning points I had a little bit maybe have a similar approach to your you seem like the kind of guy that wants to change the world, you want to have a positive impact, improve the lives drive the flourishing of the people around you. I had a similar experience as young person, sort of politics and public policy seemed to be like the avenue to achieve, gosh, I want to make the world a better place. I'm going to go into government, I'm gonna go into nonprofit, did you share some of that interest going into it? And then was there sort of a salary or a push or a pull into entrepreneurship from public policy?
Calley Means 4:03
Yeah, that's exactly what I think was the defining guide of my life, I would say growing up, just fanatically reading the news since I was could read and following every single debate in DC, I thought that's where the show was. That's where the most important societal lifts were. I think more and more particularly seeing how our institutions of trust are really rigged. And we can get more into that. And then getting more on this health axis and looking just a couple of statistics but you know, 25% of kids now having pre diabetes 50% of American having pre diabetes or diabetes, just looking at these rig systems and what's happened to American health and some theses on that and seeing that's not being what's talked about on the political sphere that we're talking about trivia, we're talking about day to day fights when really the human capital of America is really hurting 80% obesity or overweight. Rates for adults. Um, there was real mismatch there. And what's I've really become convinced of is the the public debate, the public policy debate is highly guided by some not great interest when we're really missing the main first order issue, which is that it's just very simple, but we're really getting sicker, fatter, more depressed, more infertile males, male sperm count is going down 50%, the past generation, these things are happening at an exponential rate. And we're, we're not really connecting the dots and not talking about and I think that's because of incentives that are pretty broken in our public policy systems.
Evan Baehr 5:35
I hear you on what's at stake. But I'm still not getting I'm still not getting the answer. The stuff that you just laid out a layperson may hear that and say, Kelly, run for Congress, or work on a presidential campaign and go run HHS, the stuff that you just talked about seemed like matters of national significance. This is a problem in Washington, you have not situated your solution, Washington, you situate it in Silicon Valley. Why?
Calley Means 6:04
We can get a little bit I think, actually the food debate is an interesting prison to answer some of those questions. But I could go into that a little bit. What I tweeted about and what really was relevant, I tweeted this while I was feeding my son a bottle, right after New Years, it took about a minute, it's gotten, I think, 13 million views at this point, it seemed to resonate, but it was stuff that I saw is very basic, the corruption of the system. And earlier my career, I'm reflecting working for Coke. And they really systematically rigged institutions of influence. And the ones I outlined are civil rights groups, I watched his coke executives paid civil rights groups, millions of dollars. And this was documented in New York Times at the time to call opponents in this case, parents who are worried about their kids drinking too much sugar racist, talked about the think tanks, which are very influential in Washington, DC, being paid to play and then research institutions, these research institutions, these billions of dollars, that food companies and pharma companies, fund research institutions lead to studies, like a seminal study from Harvard saying that sugar didn't cause obesity, which led to a lot of the nutritional guidelines up until the preeminent NIH study today from Tufts University in the NIH, saying that lucky charms are healthier than an egg. So I just saw this this transactional nature where literally research and think tank research and civil rights talking points are being guided by Pr executives in Washington, DC. And I think to get to your question, I think there's real leverage in people speaking out about this from outside the system. And I think, you know, this was just one tweet, but it did really resonate. And just something that I think is interesting. And something that's really gratifying to me, is several members of Congress reached out. And I really do feel that, you know, they're making a great impact, and they're trying nothing against members of Congress. But I think when you get into these systems of influence, you're in this machine. And what I'm seeing from these members of Congress from both sides of the aisle that have reached out is they're like, where are the talking points? What do we do, and I think actually have this anti corporate more populist uprising of people that aren't as tied to the traditional interests on both sides wanting to make some change. And I've been very heartened that this one tweet and this movement we're trying to create with this company has led to real meaningful conversations with members of Congress who are concerned about their children and diabetes rates. And now we're actually helping them together with talking points and looking into specific actions that they can take. So that's been great.
Evan Baehr 8:39
Do you deny that lucky charms are magically delicious?
Calley Means 8:45
No, I think they are magically delicious. I think they're weaponized to be very addictive. The foundation of the American diet is what's in Lucky Charms. If you look at the ingredients, it's highly processed grains, sugar and seed oils, which are very
Evan Baehr 8:55
addictive. Okay, my evening snack is a kid. Cocoa Pebbles, like once you eat them, and then and then you have the milk leftover. And it's like, it's like better than chocolate milk.
Calley Means 9:09
I am a libertarian, and I support actually elation on most drugs. Okay. I think most drugs should be illegal. I'm libertine on that. But I do not think we should be subsidizing these addictive drugs for kids. I think that's a little much.
Evan Baehr 9:24
Okay, I'm with you. I'm just saying they're very good. They're very good. I did. I turned out, I don't know, middle of the road monitor. But I ate Lunchables as a kid and Cocoa Pebbles and all the things and well, you did turn out great. So medium five out of 10. So I want to I want I want to frame where we're gonna go in the conversation. What I think is so interesting about the company that you guys have built we'll sort of dive into in a minute is, on one hand, hopefully it'll become a massive, awesome company that has the ability to finance and drive the public debate. But you've also really been Built a financial engine, that through the very product and service you have built, is itself driving the change. And I'm just want to salute you and saying, I want to get into the sort of your own personal journey of when these issues got really a 10 out of 10 for you. But just personally, I mean, as an investor, as an American, as an entrepreneur, I love that the path that you and your co founder have taken is to say, we want to raise capital and build a for profit company, that when we find product market fit, we are generating not just money for yourselves that you would then use to donate to political campaigns, but but the business itself is delivering a product and a service to Americans. And beyond that itself is the agent of change. Does that resonate with how you think about your business as a tool to drive the outcomes?
Calley Means 10:49
I think it does, I can give you a little bit the framework of how we came up with it and a slightly, I wouldn't say alternate, but an additional framework I used is like, kind of selfish, it's like, I'm very passionate about this issue, I will feel really good if I can push this issue forward. This sounds cheesy, but I just had my first kid where my wife had him. And I'm really concerned about the world he's going into. So the framework having sold the last company, and it's really I felt very privileged to be able to ask this question. It's like, what issue do I really care about? And that took a while to figure out but I determined it was that the foundations of health care, every single health care institution we rely on is profits when we're sick. That I think is actually the biggest incentive problem 95% of healthcare money is spent on people that are sick.
Evan Baehr 11:40
Back up a little bit. Did you have a kind of a top 10 list of things you might tackle after you guys sold this business? Or how did that particular one, get to the top of your list?
Calley Means 11:49
Well, I talked about my sister who's had a huge impact on me just watching her and really a tough, tough experience at first giving up 12 years of plus of, of work of being a surgeon.
Evan Baehr 12:02
You bet you you mentioned briefly earlier, what was her tipping point or the final straw that she just said, like I'm out tell us what happened with her.
Calley Means 12:10
She as she says it, she was doing her 300th year so you know, sinusitis surgery she did all day, multiple day, sinus infections, cutting out, you know, going into the nose. And she had this like, come to Jesus moment, where she realized she had no idea why that person under the knife was sick and inflamed. And that person, it was their second trip there in a year for that surgery. And most of her patients she was seeing again, and again, they weren't getting better. She was the top of her class at Stanford med school, she has been in research at the NIH, she's been an all the top, you know many of the top medical institutions and she was standing over this patient and did not know why they're sick. And that is a systemic problem. The majority of funding that actually goes to major med schools somehow comes from pharma. And that dictates the curriculum. 80% of medical schools in the United States today do not require a single nutrition course 90% of the overall curriculum is dealing with pharmacology is how to prescribe once people are sick. Doctors in this country just fundamentally do not know the underlying physiology of why people are sick. So that led her to quit. And I think you do have a realization and kind of a tragic things. Dynamic with doctors in this country where it's the best and the brightest are becoming doctors, obviously, they're very dedicated. But the suicide rate is the highest among any profession, that depression rate is the highest among any profession. The burnout rate is the highest among a new profession. I think there's a realization once people get in the system that they know that the patients aren't getting better, and they're there to make patients better. And I think it's a real problem. So she bravely decided to do something. And then in the intervening period, I'll just give you a personal story. Our beloved mom, our best friend was very healthy and abruptly was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, and 13 days later was dead in 2021. And in a weird way, it's it was one of the most positive and life affirming moments in my life. Although it's been for my entire life, what I've feared the most, watching how my mom handled that and really thinking about what caused her pancreatic cancer and digging through that and actually realizing that she was one of the 50% of Americans who's pre diabetic or pre diabetic. And the foundation of most cancers, including Patriot pancreatic cancer is blood sugar dysregulation is food. And we're really being blinded. People are waiting, you know, the medical system is waiting for us to get sick, but cancer dementia all these conditions are not inevitable. So that really put me on fire for this root cause health I explored a couple areas. I think psychedelics actually in the mental health Renaissance is also under the umbrella of root cause health. 25% of Americans right now are on some kind of mental health medication. They might be helpful in some instances. But that's a big societal dynamic, the fact that 25% of Americans are on medications that fundamentally numb you a little bit. And I think the research coming out from Johns Hopkins and Harvard and other places in psychedelics is profound. And one of the most, you know, I really liken it to food. Because while psychedelics helps you get to the core issues of what's causing trauma, while SSRIs are lifetime drugs, that kind of numb you, food helps get to the core metabolic issues, that's really the underpinning of every chronic disease instead of just, you know, treating the band aids symptoms. So I was very passionate about that idea of an end, and explored that for a while. And while I was driving to find the idea, find the idea, I was getting advice from Katie and my wife, Leslie, just talk about what you're passionate about, write some content, have good conversations, that's not transactional. And the second I started doing that, and just talking about this passion, then it really started coming together on a company,
Evan Baehr 16:01
a lot of people talking about product market fit, I love the analogous version of founder company fit, which just sort of says, you know, sometimes in our shared like, NBA Wanke world, it's like, I would like to start a business built List of 20 companies. But for you and this experience that you've gone through, especially with your sister and your mom, it's such an obvious thing. You can talk at nauseam about this thing. It's like, of course, that's the company that Callie should be involved in. So just want to salute you on that. But gosh, that diagnosis, and then it sounds like the 14 days later if your game. Like what was that? Like for you guys? It's sort of the the nightmare scenario.
Calley Means 16:41
Yeah, it that, I appreciate that. But, you know, a lot of people are like, Oh, that must have been horrible. You know, that must have been a tough experience your life I am. So in a weird way grateful for those 13 days, it was the most profound and important 13 days in my life. You know, one thing I'd say is that my mom, you know, with her, her, her daughter, you know, becoming very interest metabolic health, her son on that road, was really working hard, you know, her, her house was just full of hundreds of books on fasting and, and questioning the medical system and diet. And she was really working, it ended up being too late that that, that pancreatic cancer was laying dormant for many years that we didn't know about. But But even that work, even her personal improvement, even her journey of having more all about the human body and improving on that, that really transferred to my sister and me. And and so huge insight from those 13 days, seeing her with those books and influencing us to now push this forward and, and the indelible images, she got hundreds and hundreds of notes from people that whose lives that she impacted and watching her read those notes. And, and then in her final moments of consciousness asking for us to carry her to the beach, which she loved and embracing my dad and thanking her for and just just saying how amazing their life was together. There was really this profound like, like idea that like, about time, I mean, it just the indelible image that she's alive, and my sister and me and the many people she touched, and, you know, her journey on trying to be healthier, and understand that the body better wasn't in vain. I don't think it was a failure. I think she's, you know, pushed that forward. So I do have this strong belief that that that the American patient has been gaslighted into like not asking any questions, you know, it's like trust the science, it's like you're an idiot for self diagnosing or questioning anything. At the same time, we're exponentially getting sicker and fatter, more depressed, more and fertile. And it's just like, I just think there's such like value in, in really unpacking the underlying causes of what's and then it kind of just gets to an obvious thing. We're being poisoned by our food. I've never been a big nutrition guys, you know it just like it. But it's so manifestly obvious. And it's, it's not about me lecturing about nutrition. It's, my message is we as a baseline, we need to wake up that that our food system is rigged. I mean, it is really doing violence, particularly to kids.
Evan Baehr 19:23
I want to talk about true Med, and you've given a bunch of stats, and there's so many in there. So discouraging. I want to break down just some of the real basics of the problem. assume you've said none of these awesome, powerful statistics so far in this conversation. Just start with the 101 of what is the problem true mad is trying to solve?
Calley Means 19:48
So the fundamental problem is that what's happening right now where 80% of Americans are overweight or obese 93% are metabolically healthy, unhealthy 50% of it alts have pre diabetes or diabetes, chronic conditions depression are going off the chart autoimmune diseases, you know, allergies. This is all happening from one incentive, which is that we have a food system that has profited from cheaper food and more addictive food. And importantly, then a medical system that has stood silent while that violence has happened, because the medical system profits from people being sicker for longer periods of time. Let's just unpack that a little bit more. And this is very important, our stand, our doctors are good people, even farm executives, food executives, etc. But every level of our health system, from insurance to medical schools, to pharmaceutical companies to hospitals, they lose money when we're healthy. They make money when patients are sicker for longer periods of time. And that is why the incentives have driven chronic diseases, which are lifetime illnesses, which require a lifetime of statins, a lifetime of SSRIs a lifetime of metformin, you know, various surgeries interventions along the way. It's this perfect system that has worked perfectly. And the question we ask is how can we change those incentives using the current system? That was the foundational question that we became very passionate about? How can we use levers of the current system to do a very simple thing, which is incentivize healthy behaviors. And just to give a little bit of insight on like, kind of the journey to create this company, because I think you're right, I mean, and this was me, during my first company, and I've learned this lesson, I think, when you're just trying to create an idea for the sake of an idea and you're guided by fear, and you're guided by like, I want to prove people wrong and and to accompany you might do okay, but I really don't think it leads to happiness, I really do think having something you feel really passionate about leads to leads to happiness, at least for me, it has. And I just think starting with the problem, then we had the foundational question of how do we change incentives. And then then we found a wedge that we got very excited about,
Evan Baehr 21:58
I want to take those three areas of statistics in order. If the first is about the effects on the individual human person, then we talked about the food system. And then we talked about the health care system. So let's just pick those in that order. On the human person, overweight, obese, feel intuitive enough. What is metabolic health? And what does it mean to be metabolically unhealthy?
Calley Means 22:22
Let's just break it down. And I'm not a you know, big science guy didn't do very well in biology, which I think is a shame because I think digging into this, it's one of the most, it's probably the most interesting thing you could possibly think about biologists let's just let's just go high level. What we are putting into our body, that ton of the one ton of food is genetic information. Our bodies are evolutionary created to take food to take this time, I call it cellular information and produce an outcome. The foundation of the American diet is completely evolutionarily unprecedented. The foundation of the American diet is three things, it's 70%, processed foods and look at any food even if it's from Whole Foods organic, it's going to usually contain three things, it's going to contain highly processed grains, some kind of flour. Now, this is the key that is an invention of the last 100 years and the processing is taking the fiber off the grain and the fiber helps blunt the glucose impact. So that highly processed grain without the fiber, which by the way, goes rancid so taking that off makes it shelf stable. That grain is a sugar bomb. It doesn't say sugar, but that converts to sugar. So anything with the flour or the highly processed grains, which is the first ingredient, almost any energy bar any anything you'll see on your shelf, anyone's shelf, it turns into sugar. The second of course, is added sugar that's gone up 100 to 150x in the past 100 years. And a kid drinking one can of soda right now is ingesting as much sugar as an average kid did an entire year 100 years ago. So obviously added sugar and that's being weaponized. And the third is seed oils. sceetos did not exist 100 years ago, these are highly processed, very cheap byproducts of our industrial farming. They're highly inflammatory and are the main source of American fat today. And it's it's about 20 times cheaper than healthier oils like olive oil, and that's most food. So it's very simple. We're putting this genetic information into our bodies, which isn't food which is causing high inflammation. The exact mechanism is that these grains and sugars go into our cell. Glucose is the fuel for ourselves. But when there's too much glucose, it gets kicked back out to the bloodstream and that converts into fat and Evon. I'll just say this one thing and this is how I think about and this is a very important concept. All these chronic issues are downstream symptoms of that dynamic that our cells are being overwhelmed with toxic food that mitochondria mitochondria is kicking out that sugar into the bloodstream. One symptom is obesity, that sugar can turn into fat, but that dysregulation can happen in the liver and cause liver damage. 20 Excuse me. 15% of children have fatty liver to He's right now, according to the CDC, 15%, that used to be a disease only for elderly alcoholics. 15% of children now have fatty liver disease, it goes into the brain, it goes into the skin, the cellular, there's mass cellular dysregulation happening because of our food. And, you know, I think nobody would disagree, diabetes, heart disease, if we cut those three ingredients, sugars, processed grains, and seed oils from our diet, we would eliminate those two diseases. But it's also things like Alzheimer's, Alzheimer's, now is called type three diabetes, there's very few, if any, people with Alzheimer's, that don't have pre diabetes or diabetes before it is it is downstream of that it is cellular dysregulation of the brain, if you have good metabolic health, which means your blood sugar is under control. You I will say this pretty definitively, you won't get Alzheimer's. So you think about the human capital elements here, you know, an obese, I'm not worried about the obesity of that kid, that that's a visual representation. It's a symptom of, of literally cellular dysregulation 20% of that kid cells are in their brain. That is why obesity is highly tied to suicide, to depression, to autoimmune issues, to brain fog, that kid is being held back. And I think a key thing and the thing that the key incentive of the medical system gets wrong is that giving that kid an SSRI, given that kind of stat and giving that kind of metformin, it might be helpful, short term for a band aid. But if they keep eating that canola oil, eating that sugar, eating those highly processed grains, they're still doing violence to their cells. That's why That's why stands have not decreased. increased life expectancy, there's a study it stands which Cumin is a trillion dollars worldwide have been spent on Stan's increased life at 55 days. Because while they lower one aspect of your cholesterol, if you don't change this poison that you're eating, you're gonna get other dynamics, your underlying cellular dysfunction doesn't change. So you're gonna get cancer, you're gonna get dementia or something like that. So, to me, it's just, you know, when you break it down, the incentives are really clear, you say it's kind of daunting. I'm actually optimistic. I actually, actually, I was very despondent, but I actually think we're turning a corner to be honest,
Evan Baehr 27:24
when some people think about unhealthy food and the added sugar of their mind goes to obesity, and elementary and obviously unfair take on that is, you know, you look a little pudgy, or you don't look good on the beach. And the list of the top diseases, the top killers, and they're tied to metabolic health is really profound. How would you go about understanding the ramifications of the metabolic crisis? And its impact on the human flourishing of people today? What are the mechanisms that you just begin to think about the ramifications of how it limits our flourishing?
Calley Means 28:06
It's our brains, like our brains perceive reality? Is the first order issue like, like a society is humans who are perceiving the world and making decisions. And the cells in our brains that perceive reality are completely unpleasantly out
Evan Baehr 28:27
of whack. Okay, that was bigger than I thought. Okay, let me try to then have you unpack the second order. Because the matter if it's a third order, at some point, it means you actually die from heart disease, you get maybe a shorter lifespan or a shorter health span, but but to people who think, Oh, if I eat bad now, I might get heart disease when I'm old, or I might be a little pudgy or when I go to the beach in the summer, just tick through some of the things to help think about the effect here on human flourishing generally, your your energy levels, your ability to focus, your ability to perform to connect, like, what are the ramifications that you see? Let me give you
Calley Means 29:11
kind of my story. Okay, so I was born at 12 pounds, okay? A lot of kids are now born overweight. Being born at 12 pounds, meant that I was born with some metabolic dysfunction. And it also meant my mom had some metabolic dysfunction. And at the hospital that was celebrated, right, she had gestational diabetes. Oh, everyone has that take take this. She had an overweight baby. It was not seen as a warning sign. It could have been but it was like Oh, you gotta go baby. Congratulations. And oh, you know, gestational diabetes is fine. Then she grows a little bit older and has high cholesterol levels. She's prescribed a statin Oh 35% of people over 40 are prescribed a statin no big deal. This is very standard, not seen as a warning sign. Then she gets a little bit older has you know, impaired glucose is prescribed Metformin, like 10s of millions of Americans. Oh, that's That's normal, right? Every single these normalize things right getting a standard prescription is a rite of passage. Gestational diabetes is normalized PCOS, which many of our friends are experiencing is, is almost normalized. Depression, anxiety, fatigue, low energy, brain fog, the biggest lie, I think and health and the most dangerous gaslighting, I think that's that's happening is the idea that people in their 30s and 40s are healthy, we are experiencing things that we should not be accepting the number one reason for visits, the doctor's office is low energy, that is not normal. It's just just generalized concerns about their energy levels. Right. So let's get that out of the way. We are all most of us are experiencing some kind and understanding that depression, that infertility, that anxiety, that fatigue, it's not normal, it's tied to metabolic health, these are warning signs, we can thrive better. And I think as humans, our brains normalize things, but we can assess what public policy goal would be more important than fundamentally asking how can our human capital, you know, have functioning brains functioning bodies to perceive the world in a positive way, and we're systematically denigrating that we're actually subsidizing violence to our brains and bodies with our grain subsidies with our, you know, the food stamp issue that I talked about where you know, 10% of all food stamp spending, which 15% of the American people depend on from nutrition goes to sugary drinks we're actually going the other way on our public policy but But yeah, that's the key thing the these these little ankle biters right now are warning signs for later and their stuff we should we should see as a welcome warning sign to address that can be better.
Evan Baehr 31:57
So when you see someone who is in metabolic dysfunction and on an SSRI and reports, I feel okay, I think I think things are going alright. What does becoming metabolically healthy and potentially getting off of that SSRI? What does that do for them? How does their life change?
Calley Means 32:17
So this is not about forcing anyone and everyone needs to make a decision to go on this path. I will say, and I think a lot of listeners and a lot of people and I've been led by a lot of other people, honestly you Evan who's posted about a lot of your biohacking. Before I even got into this. I think the journey of having curiosity and awe of your body and of the connections of how you see the world is really gratifying. And I think the more we can talk about that, the more we can see doubt on blindly trusting the American Academy of Pediatrics saying that 12 year old should be getting obesity shots, and mass prescribed SSRIs and Adderall. I think the more we concede some doubt, that's step one. So I've benefited from from you talking about it from other podcasters talking about it from books being written, I think a little bit of radicalization is start asking questions, but I've talked to a lot of people who are on SSRIs, who really feel like the system is rigged a little bit. And I think just just the journey, having a little bit more confidence to go outside the box, because I'm sure most psychiatrists are very good people. But SSRIs is the basis of psychology in the United States. It's bought and paid for the Harvard recently did a conference and they could not find a psychologist who wasn't financially compromised with SSRI makers that the dean said that they literally couldn't find somebody because it's recurring revenue, not just for the pharmaceutical makers, but to really get prescriptions. It's the foundation. And then you know, you talk about the psychedelic research. This is Johns Hopkins saying that two experiences for our experiences is much more impactful for reducing depressive symptoms for for months, then, you know, then recurring SSRI so that there are ways to cure the root cause but that's just not profitable.
Evan Baehr 34:14
I'm going to ask you to do something weird, which is preview what has to be a future podcast we will host because it's way too long but SSRI selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor, give us the big idea. This is a book you recommended read two months ago, I did listen to it, read it, listen to it. The hacking of the American mind. Give us just a quick little wax poetic 60 seconds on serotonin versus dopamine. This will be a preview for a future pod. But what's the big idea in that book and how did it shape your thinking?
Calley Means 34:46
I mean, the thesis I would give is that we really need to expand our definition of what a drug is and be critical thinking about that. I think most of our lives go from one what would be defined as a drug to the next we get up we drink caffeine, we check our phone You know, many people look at porn, we take pharmaceutical drugs, there's 17 prescriptions per American issued a year in the United States. And we're kind of in this like, Chamber of like, having the system to find what a drug for us like all those things are drugs were literally like, guided much more than we think by this dopamine reward system. And and I just like like, listen, I, I think alcohol the more you dig into it is terrible for you. But I have had some of the best moments in my life, drinking and bonding with friends and meeting my wife. I'm not saying I'm not being puritanical here, but I think we really need and I think really something I'm thinking about with a new son is like critical thinking about our dopamine. It's just like, like the social media. And what happens in the head for a kid is literally, like, almost indistinguishable from like, giving them heroin. I mean, I'm actually not being that hyperbolic there. And I just think we just need to realize that and really understand and regulate and I think train our kids how to think about how dopamine guides you. Serotonin, regulates contentment, and just one point on serotonin 95% of it is in the gut. So our brain and body and this gets the idea of metabolic health and, and what we're really trying to drive with root cause solutions to through Mab is everything's are so connected. So if you have IBS or gastrointestinal issues, you are dramatically more likely to have depression. And that's because it's created in the gut. And, and there's just a sprain body connection. So really just understanding that and understanding how different pills we could be taking that disrupts the microbiome, the the bacteria in the gut, or pesticides on our food. And then it's like, we're wondering why we're depressed. We're wondering why we're feeling bad, it's, it's all connected and that I would just be my point about serotonin. That's what really regulates our contentment and happiness. And it's not just about the brain, it's about how we feed our body.
Evan Baehr 37:00
The status and craziest thing from that book, you've actually studied it I did a quick read was The more at least sort of flooded the brain with dopamine. That layman's version is basically it neuters, it softens, it nearly destroys the serotonin receptors so that as you've had those years of alcohol and porn and all these dopamine things, it means that the real joy that you experience from serotonin, the uptake is has been biologically inhibited. It is. The final few chapters are somewhat optimistic, but it's a dark book, highly recommend it on our next pot. Okay, we got to go through med, what is drumhead? What is the product?
Calley Means 37:42
So we started with that question, how do we incentivize health behaviors, I think a very cool public policy mechanism that is underutilized is the HSA FSA accounts. So you've probably heard about these, most listeners probably have seen them. Most people just on open enrollment, oh, I'm not going to get sick, I'm going to lose that money decline. But it's a good public policy instrument. These are tax free accounts to spend as you want on if you're sick, or to stay healthy, or to prevent a condition $7,200 for a family. What we found is that some forward thinking doctors are writing prescriptions for food and exercise to prevent or reverse disease. And the science is unimpeachable. When you talk about any of these metabolic conditions, food and exercise are very often the best medicine. So we utilize that research and we're trying to do is, is bring that to the people really, we're going to be a payment app embedded in healthy products, where you can take an asynchronous medical survey, and qualify patients will be qualified, right, right through the payment flow. To purchase this food is medicine. This exercise is medicine, you know, their favorite supplements, food, exercise products, tax free, that can be a 30 40% savings. You know, there's there's got to be a lot of public policy that I think follows this food as medicine angle, but I think it's a start, you know, $7,200 for a family, you know, it bends the cost curve to make, you know, food, healthy food on par with the processed food that's federally subsidized. So we're very excited about this.
Evan Baehr 39:12
So just real practically, let me try to play back the product to make sure I understand it. So let's say I'm checking out on the peloton website or a sports nutrition website to buy some proteins and some vitamins in the checkout flow. Just like you might do a PayPal, feasibly. There can be a button and it's like the true red button. And that would maybe give me my balance and my HSA or sort of say you have this amount to spend. And so many Americans might have a pile of cash sitting in their HSA, they didn't even know maybe they need to put some more into it which would be tax free. And so it's kind of a pool of capital available for eligible food or nutritional supplement things. Is it directionally you can right?
Calley Means 39:57
That is right I mean it just very tackling For anyone listening true mat.com I'm on Twitter Cali means I'm going to be announcing a lot of this. But we're gonna have a list of our merchants which is going to be growing and growing peloton hasn't signed up yet, but that's a great example you're at the peloton checkout page you see pay with PayPal, you will see our option. We're an official Shopify payment integration, and then we'll handle that telehealth work to make this compliant. And a lot of a lot of your listeners might have actually an HSA FSA card right in their pocket, which wouldn't usually work on these sites, our payment gateway, they can just take that in their pocket and pay with their HSA FSA or we have easy reimbursement guidelines. But yes, it's it's you can feel safe maximizing your HSA FSA now and use unhealthy products along the lines of Athletic Greens Eight Sleep peloton, you know, we're working with different merchants to sign them up. But but but products like that, that helped metabolic health and, and really are, you know how the root cause of disease.
Evan Baehr 40:58
I learned capital, we obviously are involved in a lot of things related to education, some of which relate to schools and what we probably think of education. And we're also involved really in in one of our partners described it as delivering payload to the brain. So thinking about any way that a technology or a service would enable an individual to have greater agency to make decisions that result in their own flourishing. Help me understand a little bit about how you think about the role of education and behavior change in the product you guys are building. I mean, the cheap view of this is like, alright, it's, you know, 30 40% discount on things are already expensive. And how are people really going to, they can already go and buy fancier food, they just don't care. So how do you met the need to educate and change behavior through the product you've designed?
Calley Means 41:48
I see a lot of people that really do want to be healthy. I think there's a lot of pessimism that we're led to think from the medical system that everyone's just trying to 80% of Americans are trying to be overweight and metabolically unhealthy. And we walk into a public space and see peep mass diabetes and obesity. And just that's what people want. I really do think and this is a thing I've really transitioned on. I really do think we have a rigged system. I think we have rigged incentives, I actually believe much more in the American people than a lot of industry says, I mean, you have doctors tweeting me after this tweet, the head of the head of diabetes at treatment at UCSF saying, well, patients are just going to make their bad decisions. We're here to help. And we're here to give like, what a convenient thing to say, right that everyone's so lazy and dumb in their opinion that that they're trying to be obese. There's a real rigged system. So So I do think there's a lot and I see myself as a small foot soldier, and I'm proud to be a small foot soldier in a battle that 1000s and 1000s of people need to fight. But if we can change the cost curve, which is totally corrupt, again, 10s of billions of dollars of subsidies for this, processed grains and sugar, you know, subsidies on food stamps, totally rigged system, the externalities of sugary drinks are nowhere near priced. And it's not a free market. It's a rigged market. So starting to change those incentives, starting to see food as medicine, it's a start. And I think what's cool about our company is a lot of our you know, even you know, our friends are like, just tell me what to do. And what you get here is you get a doctor's note with specific foods that you can only save on those Whole Foods. So it's really giving you a guide. You know, most people don't want to be thinking a lot about this, they have their families. But this at least gives a little bit of a guide to as unhealthy foods and supplementing your family's diet 30% More with these metabolically healthy, you know, whole foods that will make a difference. And I think I think we're overcomplicated this if we can change the economic incentives to reflect reality. I think we're going to see some some big changes.
Evan Baehr 43:49
Have you had a conversation with someone who that head of of diabetes research, you know? So look, they made the choices. They can read the nutritional labels, they ate their way into diabetes, and my job is to help them cope with it. I've talked to people about kind of their experience of the rigged system do they feel like they were they were duped or they were tricked. It's really
Calley Means 44:19
interesting. So I won't name names but with this Twitter thread and also calling a lot attention to the to the NIH tufts food compass that says lucky charms are healthier than eggs. Some of the most prominent nutrition researchers in the country have reached out to engage. It's funny, it's the it's the language of kind of it's a little bit unsettling. It's very polite cocktail party language that hey, we both went to Stanford and Harvard. You know, don't really appreciate you aligning our great work. Can we chat you know, it's it's very subtle, right? Hence, it's like, you know, your the cocktail party isn't going well. When you're saying this man. We both went to heart. So so so I'm not I'm not you cuz it could I really do. And we talked about motivations. I, it sounds cheesy, I do have like my son's face in mind here like, like there is violence happening here. So I don't want to, I want to hold true to that. And I really do think nobody's going to convince me there aren't some, some rig systems. But I do am grateful that there is engagement. So I am speaking to some of these people right now. And I'm actually talking to a couple prominent people about potentially doing a public conversation. I think what's interesting, and what makes this conversation more complicated is that they're not bad people. But it is factually true that they are accepting millions of dollars from processed food companies to conduct research that says, Honey Nut Cheerios are healthier than beef, that then is weaponized immediately by food companies to influence children nutrition standards. I think that is violent and evil. Like I like period point blank, I don't think they are. But I think the result of that has caused trillions of dollars of excess budgetary burden for the United States and millions of deaths going back to the food pyramid. So I'm working on my mindset here, because I do think engagement is important. But I think that cocktail party circuit, you know, where everyone's talking about going to Harvard together? And, you know, let's not let's not start the boat here. I don't want to get sucked into that.
Evan Baehr 46:33
It's so interesting. What positions get scoffed at, at the Harvard cocktail party. You know, it's sort of like so many other issues that I think are mass drivers of human languishing equal rights for women, rights for religious minorities and emerging democracies, famine. So many of these things are the things that a Nicholas Kristof would write about. And everyone would love referencing that article in The New York Times. But somehow on this issue that's affecting, I mean, at least a quarter of the population in really serious ways, maybe two thirds of population in somewhat serious ways. Shortening lifespans, driving illness, I mean, check so many of the boxes, that people who feel InStyle themselves on the cutting edge on the avant garde of the big issues of the day, feels like they should be on the right side of this issue. What is going on here,
Calley Means 47:39
weaponized institutions. It is it is what I worked on. But I talked about with coke of going to the institutions of trust. And you have Nestle and processed food companies, funding tick tock influencers, body positive tick tock influencers, to say that you can be healthy at any size, right, you have a complete and utter weaponization, and calculated strategy, you know, to convince us that obesity is genetic, even though it's happened only in the past 50 years. And for some reason, and this is this is an issue that I think resonates strongly with the right and the left with individual people. But for some reason, in some quarters, it's become a political virtue to blindly trust pharmaceutical companies, and to not talk about the obvious visible metabolic dysfunction. And I want to make a clear point, and again, I'm a personal choice, free market guy. I don't think this is individuals fault. I really don't I don't think 80% of the American people are systematically trying to kill themselves and not be there to play with their grandchildren. Like, like there is really is a rigged system. And it's kind of obvious, and I think it is. Absolutely but but specifically, Ivan, I think, you know, look at the news. There's been reports more than 50% of news funding comes from pharmaceutical and food companies that leads to shameful expos A is like the 60 Minute recently saying obesity basically carrying pharma talking points. And then I think in the medical profession, you have a situation where almost every doctor is graded and paid and incentivized based on patient feedback. And now you have all these Instagram influencers, shaming doctors for even asking about weight, and they're getting bad ratings and getting called out on Tik Tok. I think there's this dynamic where doctors are now afraid to even talk about these issues. And but but but it's all kind of funded by it's funded by some forces and yeah, I It's evil. I mean, this this tufts food study. We joke about right the Lucky Charms, like I got emotional thinking about a race. I always always like thinking about what's happening to kids. It's not funny. It's totally totally rigged. It's like absolutely the first one issue that people should be outraged about. I'm glad it does seem people are waking up to this. When you look at what people listen to a podcast, the sales of bio wearables, you know, and dozens of US states, it's still not even legal for patients to have their medical information. They don't own their medical records. There's been a systematic effort to block patients from having their medical data, but that's changing. So, again, Evan, this has been a conversation and hope is, you know, maybe spurring some people to question some things, but but I really do think the message is optimism, I think actually taking more empowerment over these things, you know, is an optimistic trend, spurring
Evan Baehr 50:42
some people, in fact, 11 point 9 million people, at least by one count, have read this tweet from January 2, I'll read it now. You said this, in your own Twitter bio, you say tweeting one food health stat today. I do happen to follow you. I'd enjoyed some of your admittedly somewhat wonky posts along the way. But you know, interesting, and then January 2 came along. You said this, early in my career, I consulted for coke to ensure sugar taxes failed and soda was included in food stamp funding. I say coax policies are evil, because I saw inside the room, the first step in the playbook was paying the NAACP, and other civil rights groups to call opponents racist. You tweet often on Twitter, you write and hit tweet on the Big Blue Button. Tell us about the next few hours. And when did you realize this? This tweet was not like your other tweets.
Calley Means 51:37
I actually, I said I wrote that very quickly. And I actually had a feeling because I my tweets have been going into the ether. Let me back out that because you talk about the kind of company creation. Justin, my partner and I really feel like this company is a 20 year effort really to achieve be a foot soldier on the mission of changing healthcare incentives. We think we have a really, really good wedge. And we think we have an ability to really create a great business. But like, we want to do what we the purpose of this company is to move the needle somewhat. And we committed that we're going to speak out from the heart on this, which hopefully will help push these things forward. You know, and we do strongly believe that our company is a solution to the dynamics we're talking about. So I was pushing myself to write more. I click that button. It was pretty crazy. Within a couple hours, I was invited on Tucker Carlson. It was having millions of views. Bill Ackman, a leading hedge fund investor retweeted it and called for a class action lawsuit against Coke and Pepsi. Several billionaires were DMing me asking about the Blackmun's tweet asking how they could donate to class action lawsuit. Three members of Congress said this is absolutely crazy. I just joined Congress, I'm not tied to agricultural interest I'm trying to get on the Agriculture Committee. Can you help me with talking points. A lot of moms and other folks reached out saying that they're so frustrated, and we're happy that somebody gave voice to this. So it was very, very gratifying. I honestly, to be honest, I felt like a lot of experience in my life, were kind of leading up to this. You know, back to my days in DC, I felt very calm and fine with that, even though you know, people were calling me racist and all these other things, because I really do like, I don't care like this is this really I do feel is, is my life's mission to point this out? I think it's so obvious what's happening. I think most people feel that way. So I was calm, felt good about it, I found myself with going to a studio in Albuquerque, I was in Santa Fe on vacation to talk to Tucker was nervous. Before that, you know, it's all kind of very quick, but tried to ground myself and thinking about my son and kids. I mean, like, I really do feel that way. It's like, it's like, I'm one small little part of this, but like, it is an honor to try to communicate these issues and, and do justice to the many people who have influenced me and like I just feel honestly, like, so grateful to be trying to chip away at this mission. Because I really do think it can change and just people were kind of slant. You know, some people were hating on me for going on talker and, you know, I know some people, you know, he said some controversial things. This is a message that has to be carried to both sides of the aisle like this. This truly is like I think the issue that defines we're not in a partisan world, we're really in a world where we need to think about incentives and and how the system is rigged. And I think politics is changing. So I'm going to unapologetically talk to whoever wants to talk about this that has an audience and and conservatives and Tucker viewers, I think are having kids that are have prediabetes and and are dealing with issues and I'm I'm very honestly commend Fox for the bravery of covering this issue every night. You know a lot of there are advertisers are pharma and food too and, and think it's good that the message is getting out.
Evan Baehr 55:05
A lot of founders have a lot to say strong opinions, some advice that investors might give is just heads down, build a business product market fit, low CAC, big LTV, don't don't poke the bear. How did you? Were you deliberate in trying to evaluate? Gosh, I'm really generating a lot of enemies? And how did you think about the possible trade offs of kind of being really on the record? And I don't know, maybe you've already been experiencing some retribution. But how did you think through that?
Calley Means 55:38
There's been some trolls, but you know, I gotta tell you like, it's hundreds of messages from moms, moms are the big, the big audience for this and people that are really outraged. This is my whatever lesson I could take from all this and what I've been thinking about and thinking about these concepts for years, and with my previous company and previous experience in politics. What feels really right to me right now is, this is the issue that I want to try to move on with my life, like, I obviously have personal motivations, and I want the company to be successful, but I really do feel like I'm on fire about this issue. And I really do feel like this issue is highly tied to the solution that we're trying to drive with our company. And I feel like the customers we're trying to target with our company, are looking to give voice and, and learn and, and push this issue and movement of food as medicine forward. So I do think there's precedent that some disruptive companies are opinionated. And I think you got to be from the heart, you got to be focused on the mission, this isn't about me getting on press. And I think you've constantly got to remind yourself of this is about like, pushing the mission forward. I think if we can culturally grind to that, and be sincere. I think that comes through. And I think like, we are unapologetic, that we think our company helps that. So if you want to go really tactical, from a company standpoint, like we are trying to create a new consumer behavior, this payment integration, that allows people to buy food, you know, tax free, which I think is really important public policy. And we're I think it's great that we're building this community of people that really feel passionate about that. And I think I'd much rather write spend our like branding, marketing, you said CAC, the startups, a huge mission of startups is to market, I would much rather be working with people to help create talking points for a congressional investigation. And I think the people will see that we're working on that and see that we're really trying to push this mission forward. To me like that is much more gratifying and potentially even better for the company than like trying to figure out a new Facebook ad, I don't want to run Facebook ads, I want to put a stake in the ground, that we are fighting in every possible way to move incentives of healthcare, and build a tribe around that issue. And if somebody is upset that we are communicating on the most watched cable show in the United States, to try to impact people by this issue, we are fine with you not being our customer.
Evan Baehr 58:17
So what if the policies get changed? Your tribe gets built? And the business doesn't work? Or do those go hand in hand?
Calley Means 58:29
So here, here's, here's how I think about that. I think that healthcare policy has to shift more to incentivizing healthy food and behaviors, because we're not going to drag our way out of the situation. That's what I believe, I think mathematically, healthcare is the largest and fastest growing industry in the United States and producing worse and worse outcomes, the more we spend. It's like, it's like, you know, we talk all the time you hear all the time about the growth of healthcare spending, but it's it will be 40% of GDP in 15 years, it's like it's going to bankrupt the country. It's not slowing down. And we're not going to drug our way out of this problem. We have to get people healthier. So I want to I think that's mathematic. I think investors and you understand and some forward thinking restaurateur, I think I think economically, we're gonna have to move more to this food as medicine thing. And we want to be a part of facilitating that. So I think the best we can do is give voice to that movement is trying to talk about it. And by nature of doing that, build a team that's really passionate about moving the world forward in that direction, and then have a very mission driven company that's trying to be a seamless way for folks to use their benefits to be healthy. And I think FSA HSA is a really important wedge to Start. And then, you know, we hope to be part of that conversation. I think more and more programs can and should shift from subsidizing drugs to subsidizing healthy behaviors. And so yeah, I mean, that's how we think about it. I mean, yeah,
Evan Baehr 1:00:17
what I love here is that some people might think about sort of public benefit companies or companies that sort of our social impact businesses are have a big impact and shaping the society around them. People sometimes think about like the buy one give one model eyeglasses or shoes or something like that. And there's always felt a little bit of the frustrating to me, because essentially, the consumer is paying a tax owner to do good the experience a worse service or the business experiences a smaller margin, or you pay a higher top line price for the for the product to be able to afford to give one away. And what I think is so exciting here is that a My hope for your business as a as an American as a occasionally somewhat prediabetic person, myself, and as an investor, Let the record reflect. And what you guys are building is that you're really building an army of people who, the extent to which they're an advocate for this, maybe they literally are testifying in Congress, their navigate with their spouse, or with their kids about healthy eating, and they're using your product, the more they're using your product, the more they are saving, and the more they are reorienting their purchase of goods, of foods of experiences of coaching, that is exactly the thing that they're talking about with their spouses and with Washington. And so the integration, on the one hand, this is about as social impact, I hope you don't think of that as a as a slander, although some people might reasonably think, oh, it's people who aren't serious about business. What I love here is this is maximally impacting of society. And at the same time, maximally seeking a massive market cap, because your market cap becomes massive, when your product is working, and people are using it. And so there's no buy one, get one like it's just, it's just awesome. I'm a fan. So salute you guys will have a contestant on in the conversation, your co founder of true Matt, who's brilliant and awesome, and lots of similarities and lots of differences. But really, hats off to you guys. And I'm in what you build to wrap we do your quick takes. Some of our listeners are entrepreneurially minded, they may want to start a business. They're trying to think what you know, what am I going to be when I grew up? And how do I get excellent at this? This is very quick five quick questions. Here we go. Imagine a young entrepreneur person that you're giving this advice to we asked you your number one selection for each of the following five things here we go. And you're not you know, sworn in blood to this thing, but just a top one that you like, advice for young entrepreneur. Number one is book recommendation. What books should they read? Zero to One. Peter Thiel favorite line in that book is mine is every Rhodes Scholar had a great future in their past.
Calley Means 1:02:49
There's so much human capital that's being destroyed and shredded at elite institutions and funneled into the traditional world that's not working. I agree.
Evan Baehr 1:02:59
You know that overhead in LA like twitter handle the when he like, overheard at the Harvard cocktail party handle? You should don't do that you do. Number two podcast
Calley Means 1:03:12
on basic man, Joe Rogan, I think he's the most important person in that country. I think he talks every day about better habits being a better person exploring issues from all different sides. I think it is historical moment that he is the most listened to by far BDF entity in the country. And for some bizarre reason people are trying to tear him down when all he's doing is talking about personal improvement and really analyzing how to be a better human and how to be a better society, I think is a world historical figure. Movie. I mean, the the there's not much proof found this to this. But what comes to mind, my favorite movie is Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, I think it's one of the most underrated movies ever made. And it's just like super surrealist about and hits on some really core themes about life.
Evan Baehr 1:04:00
Number four, a skill to learn.
Calley Means 1:04:05
Starting small and starting fast. I was like, I'm really proud about what what we started with this company is Justin, you know, has built brands that do $100 million in revenue a year as has been at the top and we just created the crappiest landing page in one day and he tweeted it out and we kind of tested demand. I think that is absolutely essential. It's like swallowing your pride. Like tweeting something out that's like MVP to like get some customer validation. I think a lot of people are scared to like put themselves out there or like they want to make something perfect. Before getting some customer validation. I just think that is essential to do early to validate. You know whether your idea hasn't traction.
Evan Baehr 1:04:49
I went to that Typeform page. And it was it was terrible. Yeah, but it was awesome. Yeah. Amazing. Last one, a place to go visit.
Calley Means 1:04:58
Oh man. Well, this does not go with the health angle but I still think Vegas is a great 24 you got you got to de stress, chronic stress lowering chronic stress, maybe maybe it raises that. I don't know now that I'm talking too much about health, maybe Vegas, I will say one thing Sedona is a spiritual and amazing place and a place my wife and I spent a lot of time during COVID And I think it's one of the most underrated places in the United States and to be very spiritual and actually very healthy and a lot of interesting stuff going on there. So I would put a big plug to take a weekend trip to Sedona if if somebody listening hasn't been there it is one of those beautiful places in the world.
Evan Baehr 1:05:39
Start in Vegas recover in the takeaway? That's right. This is Kelly means co founder of true mad new domain true med.com.
Calley Means 1:05:48
Announcing right here the breaking news.
Evan Baehr 1:05:51
Amazing and of course you can check his always provocative sometimes with millions of viewers. Twitter presents at Kelly means ca ll e y m e a n s. Kelly, thanks for being here. Like you, Evan.
Thanks for tuning in to venture to flourish. If you know someone who should be listening to the pod, would you do me a favor and just send them a link and check out the site learn.vc/flourish There you can subscribe to our newsletter, read transcripts, find related articles and even upcoming events. And hey, on a personal note, I'm really glad you're here. There are a lot of parts of my own life where I feel like I'm languishing. So I love your interest in the topic and look forward to figuring out what we can achieve together. Signing off. It's Evan Baer from venture to flourish.